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Adrienne, thank you for commenting. Before I start I want to say that I am Pentecostal with the Church of God out of Cleveland Tennessee, so Dancing, shouting, singing, clapping, are forms of worship that I express and I do believe that it is totally biblical.

The Ramp is NOT Awakening a generation. Only the Holy Spirit can do that and from what I have witnessed from many encounters with them, it is more hype than real worship. Everything you said about meaning the words, etc is 100% true, but there is a move with church worship that is being used today to put the congregation in a false sense of “euphoria” as I stated in the post. This was also seen daily in the Todd Bentley revival in Lakeland Florida. And it is mainly targeted to Teenagers. I don’t want to worship God just to have fun. That draws the motivation to self. I enjoy praising and worshiping God, but I don’t think how Rick Pino was leading them was very accurate biblically. I am very involved in the Worship at my church and I can just tell you that If our church started to do this sort of thing, I would leave. About the “Holy Ghost Hoedown”, that was Rick Pino’s words, not mine. I thought that was very irreverent of him to say.

I respect your thoughts and beliefs on this topic, but we just have to be careful not to cross the line when we deal with a Holy God. He is a consuming fire. He is all powerful. We are to fear him. We are to Praise Him with fear and trembling. He Loves us, but we are to be reverent to the things of God. If this isn’t irreverent, then what is?

Well, that’s ten minutes of my life that I’ll never get back. To be upfront, I am not pentecostal or charismatic in the theological sense (I have hopes of charisma elsewhere). To be even more honest, I was an old fogey when I was 16. Actually, Tony knew me when I was younger than that, he may say I was a stick in the mud when I was much younger. All that is to say that doctrinally, I don’t agree with the Ramp and that stylistically I don’t worship in a similar fashion. And seriously? Some of the hair in that video was ghastly. I’m ok with people wearing different clothes and expressing themselves in different ways, but some of those cuts weren’t even attractive.

My critiques of the video though are not that bad though. You make it sound heretical. The Ramp may be, I’ve never been and the few bits I read on their website assured me that I never will. This video though isn’t heretical. It’s misguided at parts, immature in others, and silly everywhere else, but it doesn’t strike me as heretical. It doesn’t communicate any doctrine one way or the other so it’s hard to call it false. There are some very rough parts though.

His opening dialogue where he references Moses is not a teaching moment or a call to worship, it’s a calculated segue to get people to have stuff to wave around. That’s poor form, in my opinion. There is also no context, at least in the video, for what they’re saying. That’s not a problem for most hymns or worship songs because the context within themselves is generally enough to stave off misinterpretations. With this song though, he needed to say what they were singing about.

The issue isn’t taking a secular song and “christianizing” it. Martin Luther took bar songs and composed hymns with the same tunes. My church put on a puppet show last Christmas that used completely rewritten secular songs to teach the Christmas and salvation story. It was an effective way to communicate the story in a fresh way to a hard audience. If we can take thoughts captive, we can take tunes captive as well. I don’t think that’s an issue of sin. The issue here is that they didn’t go far enough.

They needed to express either in a lyric or in a speech, what they mean by being spun around by Jesus. There are a few options that could work. It certainly sounds silly to my ears, but it would be possible to say that we need Jesus to “spin” us around from our paths of sin or something similar. Personally, I would have preferred a better lyric change than just adding Jesus in. But that is more of a sign of immaturity than false doctrine.

As for the hoe down, that does strike me as disrespectful and immature. On its own, that’s not a mark of heresy. That’s a mistake of poor judgment. If they continue in it after being called on it, then you can make that next jump. People make bad calls and poor decisions even when they’re standing before a crowd. What I don’t have here is any kind of response from the Ramp that I can find to this type of criticism. Without that or further evidence, it seems like a jump to shout heresy. It’s certainly a place to call out impropriety, but not a place to call false doctrine.

With the mess me up line, that one seems easiest to understand to me. Isaiah’s vision of God in chapter 6 of his book leaves him crying out that he is undone. It takes an intervention of God by having an angel touch his lips with a coal from an altar to restore and cleanse him. Before that happened though, he had to recognize his own nature. Praying for God to mess us up, could be a reference to that kind of idea. That we need God to open our eyes to the reality of our sin so that He can then begin to cleanse us of it. Though, again, the issue is that I can come up with that, but that wasn’t communicated in the song or through speech.

My issue here isn’t one of false doctrine. There isn’t any doctrine being conveyed in this video. It isn’t one of poor worship. This isn’t a worship service. It’s a concert. It’s an immature and silly concert that should not be called a worship service. If it is being called that, that’s an issue that should be called out. Is a silly song heretical just by being silly? I used to sing that I couldn’t get to heaven on roller skates. Am I going to burn for that?

Was that ten minutes of music, the most profitable way they could have spent their time gathered together? No. Was the love train part silly and useless? Yes. Was it a worship service? No.

We can’t just call out false doctrine off of this one video though. We can certainly call immaturity, but we have nothing about what they believe or teach. If you want a profitable discussion, you should discuss what makes up a worship service and what is appropriate therein. If you want to call out heresy or false doctrine, you need to find where they are actually communicating what they believe.

It seems that there are actual reasons to critique the Ramp. I read through one of their blog entries on their site and found some very poor exegesis. I am leery of any “Christian” organization that is not upfront about their core beliefs. If what Tony refers to in his comment about his personal experience is accurate, all the more reason to critique. I am not trying to defend the Ramp, though I do feel bad for the young person who posted above. But there isn’t any profit in just saying something is bad and not providing an alternative.

Let me ask my charismatic brethren though, if the words had been better, and everything else the same (the music, rhythmic movement, jumping, swinging stuff) would it have been a worship service? What would need to change for this to be a worship service?

Joshs last blog post..One of those nights

I agree with most of what Josh has said above. We are obligated to not only show the brethren where they are in error according to the Word of God, but also to show them and guide them to the straight and narrow path. I am sure that Tony was not putting this video up just to slam someone.

To address what is true worship, the bible says this is true worship:
John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.
Hebrews 12:28-29 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire.

We obviously don’t know what the motives of those attending this group are. We cannot judge that. From watching the video, I saw no resemblance of reverence. The bible says in Matthew 15:18, ” But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person.”

In a separate video( I believe it was the same service), Dutch Sheets states that he had a vision and in that vision the Lord told him not to worry about doing anymore work for Him. He wanted Dutch to just sit and “party” for a while. Then He brought out a b-day cake because it was Dutch’s b-day. Dutch asked if He would cut the cake and He said no and just grabbed handfuls and shoved it in their mouths. He said sometimes God does sloppy things. That is just paraphrased of course, but is what they are being told. That is not scriptural. God says that everything is to be done everything in order.

My fear is when we try to mix the “world” into the church. James 4:4 says,”You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God”. I love music, but when you take that which is lascivious and try to “church” it up, you are on very dangerous territory. I think that all boils down to trying to make the church and God more acceptable to sinners rather than sinners acceptable to God.

If we truly want to see a true move of God and not just emotional hype we need to be sharing the gospel with those around us. Help them to realize that God has provided a way to save them from His wrath to come. Then we will be able to sing praise and worship Him in spirit and in truth, because we will have that knowledge that God has saved us and cleansed us from all unrighteousness. Not because the music has a cool beat or cool lyric. God bless.

guitar425s last blog post..Don’t worry, Be happy!!!

Thank you Josh for your comments. It was very helpful and you are right. I did miss an opportunity to point out the false and show what truth actually is. I wrongly assumed that the video and my short “rant” was self-explanatory, but I see now that I was wrong. I homeschool my 3 kids, so sometimes time isn’t on my side to get into huge details, so I just throw up my most recent “finds” and leave it at that. But I am missing some good opportunities in doing that. No offense at all old friend.

guitar425, thank you for your insight and comment also. The scripture that you provided was very excellent and spot on to my beliefs. I love comments on this site, even if people don’t agree.

Thank everyone for visiting my site.

God Bless
Tony

When we “blank out” our minds we enter into dangerous territory. In Peter it tells us to Be Sober and Vigilent. If we “empty” our mind out like in a trance like state, rest assured you are open up to something filling it, and not necessarily for the good.
You can see in many cultures throughout the world that music is used in demonic instances. Music has a very pivotal role in voodoo and other like satanic religions. Here is a reference video comparing many false Charismatic beliefs and actions to satanic rituals
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtVGxJU-j2I

I also question your trance assertion to Peter and Paul. God took them up and showed them visions, etc, but not trances.

Courtney,
I see you have strong feelings on the subject, however you seem to be defending the Flesh (i.e. Rick/Extreme Dance/Secular Music) rather than Citing that these “moves of God” bring about any change in mans heart toward sin. I have been part of wonderful movies of God, and the outcome is not extreme dancing or Chants of “Mess us Up”. The outcome is Salvation. I believe dancing is biblical. I have danced a few times in my life whenever I felt like I should. These worship leaders are taking a stance with the music that isn’t biblical. They are making a show out of it instead of preparing the way for the important part..the Message to be brought forth so that souls can be saved.

You say Rick Pino is leading a generation into holiness and purity through his extreme way of worship. That is not biblically sound. Only God can lead a generation into holiness. He calls us to be Holy. Making Rick Pino out to be someone more spiritual than anyone else is why I have this blog. People will hold on to their favorite celebrity in the church and deny what God says in the Word of God. these men speak of new revelations, but there is nothing new that God is revealing or doing today that he hasn’t already revealed in the Word of God. There is no new way of salvation. All you end up is extreme noise in the name of God, with no lives changed or convicted of sin. There will be no urgency for the people to repent, because it is just a concert where other teenagers are hanging out and “cutting loose”. We have ended up treating the things of God too lightly. If we weren’t in the dispensation of Grace, I fear we would be destroyed already by making a mockery of His holiness.

Ryan,
Where in the bible does it talk about “Deep Worship”? The Charismatic community has twisted what worship is and turned it into:
-Long held out minor chords
-Repetitive lyrics
-Trance like states of dancing
-intense melodic drum beats, etc
This is what the people “think” “Deep worship” is because they have been around it. Lyrically a lot of stuff is ok. Take Jason Upton for example. He has a lot of biblically sound stuff, but I have heard people perform them and turn it into something that you would expect to view at a voodoo ritual.

You say that there are people that you don’t listen to. If you disagree with them, why stay silent. Would you want your friends and family to fall into false doctrine? I hope not.

“If you are having any life difficulties right now you might want to think about this as a source”
What is that even supposed to mean. By me speaking out againt false doctrine, God will make my life miserable? That doesn’t even make sense. You even have the “touch not my anointed” quote wrong and out of context. that is the problem with the modern church. Nobody opens up the bible anymore and reads it contexually. They pick and choose the verses to line up with their own selfish views. We need to repent and put our faith back in Christ Crucified as the source of all blessings, and not in some “Deep Worship” experiences that puts our faith in worship leaders and celebrity preachers.

If you look at it, you are condemning me from speaking out, but you yourself are condemning me for speaking out also. Kind of hypocritical if you ask me.

Yay! Let’s teach our kids to hype instead of worship. yay! Let’s not be an example of true worship, but let’s just get wild and irreverent in the presence of a Holy God! Go Adrienne!!!! Let’s be like Rick Pino and not teach that God is Holy and should be respected. Let’s be like the children of Israel at the base of mount Siani dancing like crazy to a Golden Calf! YAY!

Tonys last blog post..Young Evangelical Vote. McCain or Obama?

Different style of worship? I’m Pentecostal. I dance before the Lord. I shout. I sing. I clap my hands. I sing and speak in tongues. But at the same time I have the Discernment that the Spirit gives to me. You have to understand, Nichole, that everything that has the “form” of Godliness is not always from God. We can’t take everything at face value and decide that it must be of value of God. The “soul” business is the most serious business, period. If we get something wrong, we will have eternity to pay for it. Judging…yes, I am, because the Bible tells me to.
I don’t want to sit idly by, overlooking the scriptures where Jesus says that there would be those that come that will lead people astray. We have to judge EVERYTHING with the Word of God. EVERYTHING. I can’t stress that enough. There is no precedence for this kind of Tomfoolery in the Bible. IT MUST BE IN THE WORD. We can’t just start making stuff up. If someone just started a movement of worshipping God by hawking loogies for the Lord, would you follow it, because it seems like that person is doing it for God? I hope not. And hopefully not for the simple reason that that act is not in the Bible. If Paul Hawked Loogies for Christ, and the Holy Spirit inspired him to write about that being a principle of worship, then I would Hawk Loogies for Christ. But I will not spin my socks in the air and chant lyrics from failure pop songs. I refuse to sell myself out. I will only praise the one and only true and living God in the manner that he desires. It is all about Him and not in one bit about me.

Tonys last blog post..Personal : Fall Family Pictures

Steve,
I think that even you, “watching the videos” makes a distinction between that and some of Rick’s other stuff. I totally separate some of Rick Pinos anointed writing with the “garbage” that I see in the videos. I even sing some stuff at church. When it is just words that the Holy Spirit can use, people are able to worship as the Bible States, but when you see a live service and see how Rick Pino, and others like him, pervert a worship service, you will see where I have my problem. You know all of the worship references in the Bible.
I do not have to go back in time to know that David did not “spin” things around and declare that is how you worship. Do you not realize that we don’t just make things up and call it worship. We have to use Scripture as reference. There is Biblical worship, and there is noise. What you are declaring is that we can peek our heads in ANY nightclub in the world and witness worship. Just the simple fact of many people jumping around, is deemed “worship” by that camp.

I lost all respect for Rick Pino when he got into the Todd Bently Fake Revival down in Lakeland. You would think a true man of God would have the discernment to avoid that kind of thing.

I don’t think people like Rick Pino start out intending to contradict the word of God, but sometimes people get caught up in their own hype and compromise themselves.

I know I am not going to change a thing with your beliefs. You are holding people up on pedestals and deeming them infallible when in reality they are in the same boat as you. They are no better than you. They are no closer to God than you. They make mistakes, they miss the mark, they sin. We can’t think of man as any more holy than anyone else.

You have started a blog whose sole purpose is to uphold man rather than scripture. That is what respected blogs like mine and others have spoken out about. You want the “form” so bad, but there is no power in it.

You say on your blog to listen to edited Cd’s and not worship services on the internet. I think deep down you know why, but you compromise because you have already sold yourself out to people like Dutch Sheets, Rick Pino, and the like.

In your mind it seems like everything goes, as long as people say they are doing it for God. I certainly hope you don’t really believe that.

Tonys last blog post..Personal : Fall Family Pictures

Like I said, some of his, words on paper can be used awesomely by God in a worship service. But it must be done scriptually. “We Prepare the Way” I played for our alter service yesterday and the Lord moved mightily. That is my point though, worship is in the heart and I just hate to see kids led on that worship is “THIS” and has to be “THIS” or the Lord isn’t moving. You can see in those meetings that there are people that truly love the Lord and want to worship him, but you also get masses that are just jumping around cause of the group mentality. I take worship seriously because I am involved in it as a ministry.

Tonys last blog post..Personal : Fall Family Pictures

Your theology is all messed up. There is something terribly wrong with wanting to bring God’s Kingdom down to earth. Have you not read the Bible, do you not know the Plan of God for man and for the Earth? It is all fine to go back to your town and proclaim that Jesus is Lord, but if you aren’t telling people that they are sinners and that their sin will separate them from God, then you are doing a disservice to them. You need to be telling people to repent and turn away from their sin to avoid Hell.
For you to say that somehow The Ramp is where Jesus dwells, is holding up an event and a location as Holy instead of Christ. Do you not understand the Grace message? Do you not understand the Dispensation we are living in. That God is not dwelling behind a veil but in the hearts of His people? The only thing “Holy” in a church building, is the presence of God and His Spirit. To make a mockery of the things that God deems holy is blasphemy.
About that future Billy Graham. I do not believe for a second that if God has His hand on someone to be his mouthpiece, that he only gives one opportunity and then leaves them high and dry and never deals with them again….and on that same note, to say that God will only deal with people to be used by him ONLY if they visit the Ramp and Jump around, is ludicrous! (By the way, Billy Graham is denying that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven….that isn’t something you are promoting, is it?)

The worst thing that you do here in your reply to me, is to assume what offends God. The Word of God clearly lays out what offends Him. That is sin, period. All I have done here is point out the unscriptual and irreverent ways that people are doing and claiming is true worship. People just assume that everything they DO, if they think it is for God, that God will bless it as worship. This isn’t true at all. The scriptures clearly lay out what true worship is.

This is crazy to have such hatred on this post from Christians. I have atheists that comment and have respect in their discussions, but when something gets said about a Christians favorite celebrity, or their favorite church, there are Christians that crawl out from under the woodworks, NEVER defending the doctrine or falsity, but ALWAYS defending the Church or the man/woman. All doctrine can be proved against the word of God. It is simple, but people get offended if they are part of something that is off base according to Scripture.

There is nothing you said that defends your beliefs with scripture, but with emotionalism and “experience”. The heart of man is deceitfully wicked, Katey…you can’t trust that. You must trust in God alone and have the backing of scripture, or you are required to throw the chaff out to the wayside.

Tonys last blog post..Personal : Fall Family Pictures

AND…the lakeland revivial wasnt fake. His wife did file for divorce. yes. because todd made a mistake. he lost sight of his home life and was consumed with his church life. but did you know they are in counseling seeking reconciliation? just because someone in the spotlight has problems (like everyone else in the universe) does not mean they are fake. i dont understand why u think this. it makes no sense.

http://www.vimeo.com/1108025